Email Marketing Basics: An Interview with Ryan Glanzer, Email Marketing Manager at ConsumerAffairs

Ryan Glanzer and I talked about email marketing basics on February 24, 2021. Topics include list segmentation, email list hygiene and more.

Listen to the full interview below.

Email Marketing > Social Media (every day, all day)

Email marketing is still the undisputed champion of digital marketing. It has some of the highest levels of engagement of any channel and people are literally giving you permission to their inbox and their attention- the latter being one of the most valuable resources any of us has right now.

If you're relying on social media as your primary outbound channel, then you're renting the land instead of owning it.

With social media, algorithms are in control of who sees your messaging and you'll be lucky if 5-10% of the people who follow you see anything you post.

Social is a 'pay-to-play' space.

When it comes to email, it's not uncommon to reach nearly everyone you send to with 30-45% engaging in some way.

Here's the full transcript of my conversation with Ryan. It's lightly edited due to time constraints, but provides a lot of great information on the basics of email marketing:


 

[Unedited] Interview Transcript

SPEAKERS

Travis Scott, Ryan Glanzer

 

Travis Scott  00:00

Thanks for joining me today. And have Ryan Glanzer here. He's an email marketing extraordinare. Professional been doing it since 2006. Right. That is right, sir. And so opening question, and this could be my opening question for everybody, we'll see. just kicking this thing off, but what is it about marketing? that excites you?

Ryan Glanzer 00:25

Oh, good question, what excites me about marketing? For me, really, it's, the one thing I always tell people is, is the testing, you think you're gonna know, what's going to appeal to people, but you really don't until you've, you go out there and you test 100 different things and see what sticks. And it's never what you think is gonna stick. Although there are some parts of email that I've gotten down, and I know it's going to work. But a lot of it, the lot of the exciting part really is rolling out some new tests and finding out what, what sticks with a particular audience.

Travis  00:58

Yeah, I mean, I think a mantra of all marketers is always be testing right, ABT, no matter what it is, email, SEO. SEO is a little more difficult, because it's just a lot of time that has to go by sometimes. But paid search. Testing is key. what's what's an example speaking of that? You know, you said that sometimes things don't always work out like you thought they would. And I think that happens a lot. Because we're dealing with people, they're irrational. They're emotional when they make decisions, right? What's something that that you've done, that you didn't think was going to work? And then kind of surprised you.

Ryan  01:40

One great example that comes to mind was an email creative test, we did a three way split. And normally, we don't do a ton of email creative testing, because it's so labor intensive to come up with a whole new design or template. This time for this particular audience, we actually did three completely unique creatives. And the scenario was, this was a senior audience, seniors would come onto our website and state that they were interested in a medical alert device. And we were sending them the same confirmation email, we would send everyone which was the standard company template with the information on here's who you were, here's what you asked for, here's what to expect. Next. Here's a phone number.

You can call, here's some cross sell information, email tanked, nobody was clicking on it in the senior audience. And a couple of colleagues in that senior vertical, either neither with any background in email whatsoever came to me with ideas that they thought would really resonate with this audience. And I said, Yeah, let's give it a shot. It's Tell me what you got. And I'll see if I can design them.

So the first guy comes to me and he he had a printout of what looked like the most 1995 email looking email you've ever seen, even had like a picture of a printer on print this email, but it was designed after the US Social Security, or no, the US passport application confirmation email. As that looked many years ago, this guy had always thought that this would resonate with this with a senior audience. No modern stylization at all. very transactional looking great government until looking it did look official said okay, I'll see what I can do.

The other guy that comes to me with an email that was highly graphical, something with very vibrant like, tie dye background with like magenta and purple and fuchsia, huge email, or huge phone CTA and big yellow letters, which was animated and flashing. Without giant smiley face emojis in the background, and then like a picture of this younger woman with a headset on I'm like, this is the Spanish looking thing I've ever seen was his his concept.

I put it together and something that looked a little better for email. But so we've got these two crazy ideas and then our standard template. You know, both colleagues love the versions that I come up with and said, Let's test it. Let's get out there 33% of the audience.

So you had email a that looked like it was designed on Windows 3.1. And you had the other one that literally looked like you know, the little Vegas called girl cards you get when you're walking down the street and that's really what it looked like.

And I said these are both doomed to fail. These are not gonna provide any sort of lift, and obviously the they both killed it because we're telling the story.

They both destroyed the standard template that I had put together so badly. We ended up just cutting mine out and testing there's AB and over time the transaction one one out, and you wouldn't believe how many people click the Print this Email button on this thing. So I apologize. Our beagles walking in and out in the background.

Travis 04:53

I think it knew we were on a podcast and just decided to walk in Yeah, walk right back. didn't even do anything.

Ryan  05:02

The phones lit up. I mean, obviously, they knew they're from the senior vertical, they knew that seniors wanted to talk to someone in person, not click a button. So they were right on that front. Both of them had phone number CTAs.

And they both both numbers lit up compared to the one that I had buried in my email. And in the end, yeah, that transactional one, one out, but the test proved, to me and our email team that we can't just rely on one standard template for all audiences.

And from that point on, we began to tailor things a little bit better towards different demographics and, or different verticals, the SR one especially, it just had to complete the lift, we were looking for the I didn't think that email was gonna provide

Travis  05:44

That, that's really fascinating, I think, in email marketing, and marketing in general. You know, it's kind of hammered home about personas, right.

And in a lot of times, we create them. But sometimes maybe we just don't go far enough in and really understanding the demographic or psychographics of the audience we're trying to reach and how we sit out the same message, but they're getting to different audiences who may have different levels of proficiencies, and levels of comfort with things and, and maybe, you know, both of those things you mentioned, really harken back to the glory days of of the 90s.

And that's when that audience kind of got into email. And they may be having evolved with the changes, right.

So that's what they know and are used to and are comfortable with. That's what feels safe to them. For us. We got that. We'd say that it's not safe. That is that is, you know, kinda kind of sketchy and old school. Drive red flags for us. But for them. It was safe, nostalgic. And,

Ryan  07:00

yeah, there's a big familiarity factor at play for sure.

Travis Scott  07:05

Yeah, absolutely. That's fascinating. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that.

Ryan  07:08

Absolutely.

Travis  07:09

Do you find that with email? doesn't have a lot of last click attribution?

Are you getting a lot of conversions through email?

Or is it kind of a bump? And then you're seeing things down downstream?

Or do you have that visibility? You know,

Ryan  07:27

it's our business is pretty unique in the sense that most people, most people convert on other channels, we don't really end up seeing the the individuals contact information at all until they get it from an email standpoint until they've already converted, in a sense.

So for my, of what I'm doing is essentially trying to show people other options, some similar categories that they might also like, so it's kind of a tough question for me to, to answer, specifically this business, in the sense that we don't see someone tell if converted, that's when email comes into play.

You know, I've I've tried to find ways of saying, Hey, are you sure emails getting proper credit for this?

Over the years, and we are there's nothing wrong, there's nothing broken. It's just unfortunately, emails kind of the the bottom pillar in this in this particular organization, as far as revenue generation goes.

Travis  08:33

Has it been a bigger revenue generating factor in other companies you've worked for?

Ryan  08:40

Yeah, absolutely. And the more traditional e commerce business, yeah, I can say I was at Callaway golf from 2011 to 2017. And email was the number one channel we had, it was the biggest revenue generating channel because people, especially at Callaway, they wanted the latest and greatest, maybe that's not true with all brands.

But with Callaway, it was the Big Bertha driver came out and made that big comeback. The first time people heard about it, you know, 2012 2013, stuff like that, was there waiting for that email to come in? Not so much on social media at that point in time.

But they relied heavily on email, we had a very loyal email database and new sales. And you know, email exclusive type sales with our pre on stuff really moved the needle significantly, way more so than any other channel. Wow.

Travis  09:26

Yeah. I think a lot of companies especially e commerce, right, it's still a huge driver of maybe not lead leads and things like that because they're already sometimes they're already customers, but but maybe upsells cross sells, just engagement, building on that brand loyalty and, and trust. Right.

So, so I think email is still extremely valuable.

Ryan  09:55

Still very, yeah, extremely valuable

Travis  09:58

When it comes to email What do you think? You see beginners come into the game? Right?

What are some of the more common mistakes you see beginners make when they get an email that they just may not even understand coming in?

Ryan  10:15

Well, I can go at that from a couple of different perspectives. I will say some businesses don't really understand email programs, and what goes into it, and how much the research that's going to take to make it succeed.

For instance, businesses don't necessarily always understand that like, that someone from the marketing team could just jump over and do some emails here. And there. That's kind of a conception is that email could just be like, oh, take an hour here and there, and this guy can build out a newsletter and, and move on with his other tasks.

You know, it's not, it's a full, it's at least, for even a midsize company who's going to rely on email at all as a viable channel, it's at least one person's full time job, if not 234. And up for a successful company. You know, an email marketer has to do a lot of copywriting, they have to be at least a marginal designer.

I mean, granted, you're probably going to get some copy and design from some places, but you have to be able to put it together in the shape of email. You're also working heavily with data, you know, where does the data come from? And how do you segment that? How do you get it into the system? How do you get it out? What are you allowed to share?

You know, I've kind of broken it down Travis into the 7 D’s - Ryan Glanzer’s, 7 D’s of Email Marketing that I think, especially this would be very helpful for recruiters who haven't maybe dealt with email marketing before. I always preached the seven days of email market, if you can find a candidate or a group of candidates who can cover these seven areas, you'll you'll be set the seven DS are devising strategy, designing emails, developing emails, data and analytics, the dynamic and personalization part of it, the deployment and the deliverability. Are is that seven or is it the seven ds? Yeah. So and it's, it's kind of rare. I mean, I, I feel like I encompass all of those things. And when I'm hiring for people under me in our department, I also look for those seven things, I bring that up on every interview, can you devise a strategy? Have you devised email strategy before? Or are you just the type of person who can just can't just handle the coding or just handle the design, you know, we look for somebody who's actually had a part in thinking through an entire automation or an entire customer lifecycle, the design side, I mean, my background actually is an arts you know, I have a degree in computer graphic design, and web development. So I kind of the design and development parts kind of go hand in hand for me, but some people, you know, specialize a little bit more in one or the other, it's important that you're able to at least put together some moderate looking graphics, or at the very least, you know, crop things down to fit in a certain space, if you're not getting graphics in another department, the development part, thankfully, today, I don't have to rely too, too much on development. Most modern DSPs already have the wiziwig drag and drop type things built in, which saves so much time and, you know, I was I always used to hate these things, because I wanted to make I want to make an email look exactly the way I want. And I don't think that these wiziwig editors are going to be able to handle it. That's not true at all anymore. The one that we use in our ESP iterable. Any design you can possibly conceive, it will easily be able to handle it and make it look good on all devices, you know, everything's automatically responsive. Next thing, of course, is data and analytics, you're dealing with a lot of data, sometimes millions of records, and those millions of records may have hundreds of fields each, you know, how are you going to manage that? How are you going to use it? Are you going to use it to segment Are you going to use it to personalize the body of an email, there's a lot that goes into that. And then you've got you might have a million and a half contacts sitting in your database. But you have to really dig in and figure out exactly what to do with that data. And it's just such a big part of it. And that kind of goes hand in hand for dynamic part as well. I don't we are not there yet at my company. But I strive to get there with an email a newsletter that goes out to our broad database should probably be entirely dynamic. Each section of the email should be pulling from somewhere else. From the hero image to the like we include some news in it. We include some links to products or services that might be of interest to the consumer. These should all realistically be pulling from like a database or a library of content assets. That's one of the big seven days here I think is Can anybody can probably design a static email. But when you start talking about dialing it down each individual user, you want to make it as dynamic and personalized as possible. The deployment part, of course, I guess that that's kind of a gray area, like what does that mean? Exactly, you hit the send button, that's deployment. But at the same time, so much goes into that. That's the, that's the detail oriented part of it, can you go through this giant checklist and make sure that every last link is correct, every bit of copy is correct, this list is correct. The suppression list is correct the timing and all this like detail orienting, detail oriented is the kind of what I mean by deployment. And that's a big part of email to you. And that's probably the one of the seven that I struggle the most with, I've always been the type to just rush rush through, get it out the door. And then deliverability is number seven, and I could sidebar on that one for an entire session. That's the that's probably the biggest struggle or misconception businesses have is, is the idea that you can just send a newsletter to your entire database, seven times a week, and it's going to end up in their inbox in front of them every time. There's so much, so much wrong with that that

Travis  16:12

concept. How would you define your what what is deliverability? Because I think there might be confusion around what what it is, like you said, right? What is deliverability?

Ryan  16:24

Well, when you deploy an email, is it getting to where you intend it to go? Will the reader See it? And it seems like of course, we have their email address, why wouldn't they see it? Well, if it delivers at all, you know, it could go to the spam folder, you and if it goes to Gmail, it could get buried in promotions tab, it could go to a different tab, something like that. So is is the intended recipient receiving this message. And people or organizations I've worked for many organizations that have either worked for freelance for or contracted for over the years just completely don't understand the concept of deliverability or want to try to ignore it to maximize their list size. You know, I worked at a home security company. It no longer exists, I guess I can talk openly about it. But they largely hired me. Because they there, all of their emails went to spam in Gmail. And when you end up in spam in Gmail, it's almost impossible to get out. Like, it's one of the trickier things ever. So in order to avoid getting in spam, you have to practice good list hygiene. That means if you've got a form on your website, people signing up for the email list, you don't just put them all into a pile of like, here's our, our email list and just send all of them every email every time. You've really got to watch that over time, you have to say, well, this person hasn't opened in three months, should we continue to continue sending to them? The answer is usually no. And people say, Well, why not? Why should I send them what they might open this time? That's one email address that we worked hard to get that now we're just not going to send to them? And I say, Well, if you're sending to your entire list every time, so you've got a million contacts, the average lifespan of an email address is I think, three years. So and business email addresses are even less than that. They're like oftentimes a year I think. So you're talking about so much dead weight, email addresses, they're undeliverable, they're bouncing that simply don't exist, somebody typed it in wrong, there's bad syntax or something, you've got to clean the list, you absolutely have to there's several ways to go about that, you know, you can do that. Using a, an external validation tool, it's a good habit, especially if you're starting up with a new ESP, to just run your entire database through one of these tools, and it'll cost you a few $1,000 or you know, penny per paying or something but so worth it, you know, something like fresh address or, or the checker co put your entire database through there, you'll be alarmed at how many email addresses are going to come back as undeliverable. Why is that important? Because people like Gmail, Hotmail, AOL, Yahoo, whoever, well, not so much AOL, but all the other major ones, they all have these algorithms in place that are looking for engagement, you know, Gmail, especially if they see that only 7% of your list is opening emails on a regular basis. That's, that looks really bad in their eyes, and you're on thin ice with them. And you keep doing that. And you add more and more emails to this list. And fewer and fewer people engage in pretty soon Gmail makes the decision for you this to span and then it's almost impossible to get out of at which point you know, you can sit you basically have to start over. Only the people who have been opening can remain on your list. You start you go all the way down. I don't know how these people even found it. Maybe they've moved you to the primary tab or said you're not spam or they go through their spam folder and they find you and say and they're still open their emails from there but you can only send to people who are actively engaging at that. Point and continue on that pace until you're back in the inbox. And that's with Gmail, which, you know, is like 60% of the email market now, just borderline impossible, so you have to attack it upfront.

Travis  20:14

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say Gmail is probably the lion's share of personal email accounts. And I think it's such a tough, tough sell really, when it comes to executives, you know, the people outside of marketing who may not quite understand it, that think, Hey, we have this huge list, let's go since our every email to every one of them, right? And it just does not work that way. And, and yeah, like, you do have to clean it up, get rid of the deadweight, get rid of the inactives. And the inactives are tough. You know, I get it, because you worked hard to build that list. And now you've got to purge them. But if they're not opening, you know, what's, what's the point anyway?

Ryan  21:04

Literally more harm than good. Right?

Travis Scott  21:06

Exactly. And

Ryan  21:09

I've seen it at home security company I was at, you know, they think about this, if your industry is like a one time purchase, like a home security system. For instance, if I expressed interest in this product, at some point in time, you're generally going to make a decision on that within like 30 to 60 days, and then you're done. You know, you don't want to keep hearing from this home security company, three, four or five years down the road. That's kind of the mindset of some of these people is that, well, I don't want to cut them off, they might convert it happen every once in a while somebody does convert. But you've got to figure out when to draw that line. And it's different for every organization. Of course,

Travis  21:47

that's interesting, because all businesses are different, right? Customers are different behavior that the sales cycle, the lifetime value. And what you mentioned there with with Tom security, there is a lot of my audience are recruitment marketers. And that could probably be pretty similar as far as the timeline, right? If someone contacts you about it an open role, and you fill it, or they take another role. They're not gonna want to hear back from you. And three months, six months, right, so so then it's how long? Is it advantageous to hang on to them, and maybe have a long term strategy to where you reach out every so often? Couple years a year, just to see a, you know, are you happy with your system? Anything else we can do? Or? Well, I don't know about security systems, but maybe there's upsells, or cross sells or things like that, as well. But, but yeah, how would you? Would you just start from scratch? Or would you continue to ping those people, but just very infrequently?

Ryan  23:05

Yeah, that's a great point you brought up I should have mentioned before, yeah. When you're taking when you're scrubbing these lists and removing people, I don't mean completely remove them from the database. I mean, just remove them from your like regular newsletter cadence or whatever automation they happen to be in. Yeah, you still want to keep them around if they're deliverable. And yeah, like you said, I would infrequently check in. That's a great idea. And I think at Callaway, what we would do is if you had an open an email, I don't know if we'd went with a timeframe or a certain number of emails. But if you had an open an email and X amount of time, you know, you would no longer get our newsletters. But there still were some instances where you would fall into like a targeted send or something maybe geographical, like, Oh, we noticed there's a event going on within 50 miles of your zip code, that sort of thing we might include them on, but not the regular newsletter cadence.

Travis  23:57

Yeah, and, and, and then newsletters versus email marketing. I mean, it's underneath email marketing, but there's different types of strategies and newsletters are one strategy and what nurturing is another and you know, how our newsletters different than other types of email marketing?

 

Ryan  24:18

Yeah, and in my instance, what we look at is, you know, we've got got these automations that that customers go through initially, when they've expressed interest in a certain category that will keep them on for a few weeks. Really try to tell them about sell the product or the brand, whatever it is, here's the advantages or in some cases, you know, maybe here's some things you might want to look out for. Here's some other places you might want to get quotes from. That's all like one set of email marketing. That's all automated. We know they're in the market right now. It's timely. It's absolutely relevant to what they specifically asked to hear about, and then newsletters once they've aged out those automations but you were still active and engaged at that point in time. There's still opportunity there. And that's kind of what we use newsletters for. Granted our, our site is partially news. So it is newsletter literally in that we, we have a news team and they write news. But the other half of that is, of course, trying to find, you know, we knew that one point in time this person was interested in, in a home warranty, you know, that probably means they're a homeowner, here's some, some home related articles, things that we try to just keep them interested, keep them engaged, keep them in the loop, knowing some of their interests at least. So a newsletter can have a little bit of both. In terms of here's the latest in our organization, here's the latest for about our company and in consumer news and alerts and recalls and all that stuff that you really want to hear about. And then, you know, here's, here's something you might still be interested in as it related to your previous transaction. So that's kind of where I come from with that. But at the same time, you know, the newsletter, it's a very large one time send, you're talking about a singular blast to hundreds of 1000s of people at once. Whereas the you know, the the other more targeted stuff is sending in real time for each individual person, one send after the other. So it's two very different ideas. And we kind of divided up like that within my company, one person, or two people really handle those newsletters, that a lot of thought goes into it brands want. And I think that's probably true of any company, like certainly certain stakeholders in it, whether it's people within the company want a certain product or service or something represented, this is a good opportunity to get that in front of a large audience.

Travis  26:34

And when you're sending the newsletters, are they going out to your entire email list? Or? Or is it is that segment two?

Ryan  26:43

Yeah, never, we would never sent in the entire list, I would, it would have to be something super, super important for me to consider pulling the trigger on, you know, sending to millions of people at once. Now we I run a pretty tight ship here. I think I've learned from experience at other organizations where you know, they said blast the whole list. It rarely works. It rarely works. It gets you in a lot of trouble you're sending to people who are unengaged you're sending to people whose email addresses have changed, it's not going to deliver those bounce rates are huge red flags. So now I've pare it down extremely tightly to only the most recently engaged. In fact, I typically say, people who are either new to the list who have signed up explicitly in the last, like 90 days, or somebody who's opened or clicked something in another email within like the last 30 days, that's pretty much it. I cut it off after that. And if you fall outside of that, eventually you've no longer clicked or interacted, you're no longer on that list, you're still there in the background, you could get pulled into a future set if it if it targets you in some way.

Travis  27:49

Gotcha. And what about a rare event like snow in Texas, that has an impact on your business? Is that? Would companies choose to send a mass email to everyone to get ahead of any issues that may happen? Or would they still segment even an emergency type of message? Yeah, that's

Ryan  28:13

a that's a great question. It's something that, you know, we're, we were looking at actually right now. Um, someone in our company received an email from I believe it was home advisor during the storm, and it was clearly geo targeted to their zip code. And I don't know if they there are solutions in place where you can trigger events based on zip codes, weather. I know a ski company that does that. But this company, home advisor triggered an email to someone within a zip code that they knew were being affected. And it was kind of a checklist of here, make sure all these things are, are in order. We're taking that same kind of approach. Now. It's kind of like a post storm wrap up like here's what to prepare for next time. And in that instance, yeah, I actually am just taking everybody within the affected states. And we're going to try it here. I think that's even if people fall outside of that normal cadence of, of email newsletters. I think we're gonna rope them into this one, because it is important. And if you had one point in time, sign up to hear from us. This is the kind of thing that you probably really should hear.

Travis  29:21

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's really something that is recent, because you're in Texas, and you've, you know, experienced the, I don't know, they call it Snowmageddon or what's the name for that? That event? really call on that?

Ryan  29:39

Yeah, I don't know. Ice mageddon was how it started out as an ice storm. I think Yeah, Snowmageddon? Nice mageddon that was kind of a kind of the nickname.

Travis  29:50

It had rippling effects across the entire country. I'm in Spokane. I had you know, I get home chef. I just started it. I was on Are you up to shipments in there in California? But yet my package just got to me today that shipped on February 14, and I can't imagine the ice is still frozen, and the meat is any good. And as it was delayed, I was wondering where, what's going on? Where is it? When's it coming? What's, you know, why is there a delay, and I had to go out and try to contact them, it took forever, for them to get back to me. And then it's like, create, you know, create a claim. And I'm like, that's a horrible experience. And what I expected was them to get ahead of it, and contact all of their customers and say, Hey, we're experiencing these issues, we understand this is going to be delayed. Don't eat the food, we're going to automatically put this money in your account, if it looks like so you don't don't fill out a claim that's more work for us. We're just going to take care of it. And you don't worry about it. And you'll get your next delivery on time. Right. And none of that happened. And so is that an instance where they should should have sent something out ahead of time get ahead of it and use email as as that as that way?

Ryan  31:17

Absolutely. I can think of a couple instances in the past where I've experienced something like that, too. And I was really happy with the way that the the email department and these companies handle it. I think one of them was results. It's the they may click some fun t shirts and headbands and stuff with like, TV shows and things. Anyway, I had ordered some masks, some COVID masks that got very, very delayed throughout Elvis and I received an email from them, basically explaining their whole situation very upfront about it from the CEO, apologizing upfront, saying there's going to be delays, here's what to do, if you're not happy with this response, and so on. That was a really great experience. Yeah. You're gonna save yourself a lot of trouble. I know that if you get out in front of it, and email everybody. I'm surprised that a company like that wouldn't have done so.

Travis  32:09

Yeah, yeah, I was surprised as well. And and the company that I work for is Sam, it's a b2b, non SAS b2b company in Denver, and, you know, we're experiencing some some product delays and getting our products and shipping them out. And last week, when I was talking to our sales manager, I, you know, he was talking about how, you know, it could be a tough month, we're not going to get all the products to get out. And and I mentioned to him that, you know, times like this. They seem like they suck, they seem just, you know, horrible. But they're also tremendous opportunities, tremendous opportunities, if you can get ahead of ahead of it, communicate, use the platforms, you have, like email especially. And you can turn a really bad situation into increased loyalty. not easily, but a lot more easily than doing nothing. Right? Yeah.

Ryan  33:13

I'll say this to any company who doesn't take advantage of that is also missing out on a great email marketing opportunity for kind of a different reason. Have you ever received an email in your inbox from a company that was like, oops, we made a mistake from a from maybe the email marketer send something out to the wrong audience. So there was a bad link in it or something. People love those emails. Anytime you put, oops, we made a mistake, or we apologize for the inconvenience or something like that in the subject line. It's just a huge when people open those at an amazingly high rate, they love to catch people, other companies making mistakes. So if you didn't do it, that's another reason you should.

Travis  33:51

Exactly Yeah, I mean, it just creates that tension, right. And the only way to release that tension is to find out where did they screw up? I want to see so yeah, that if you want to improve your deliverability screw up, send an email

Ryan  34:06

or even don't screw up just

Travis  34:08

say that you did. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, so good stuff man. Good stuff. Love the seven DS could talk about this all day long. And I know that we're we're getting close to the time we allotted and yeah really, really appreciate you coming on to chat email marketing, we may have to do it again at some point down the road and do a deep dive into into one area or another but you have been a great great conversation and how can how can people find you if they want to tap into your your email prowess?

Ryan  34:45

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to chat email with anybody who's interested. You know, find me on Twitter at RC. Glanzer is probably the best way or Ryan glands are on LinkedIn. I think I'm not sure at my URL is there but Brian glands are Email marketer should get you where you need to go. Yeah, I've prepared a lot of a lot of great content here. We didn't get to today. So I'm eager to continue the conversation and some other means. Yeah, absolutely.

Travis  35:17

Yeah, I think we I think we should do it again, because I have have topics here as well. So. So yeah, I think email is still, I think the best channel for marketers, in a lot of different businesses know, most engaged. And I think it's the way you know, what you mentioned, how you mentioned it, and the seven DS and everything that goes into it. It's not impossible. But it's really difficult to do it and do it well, and do it right. Stay out of G mails, spam box. And I just think companies don't put as much effort into it because it is difficult. So yeah,

Ryan  35:58

I'd have to say if there's recruiters out there listening, I really don't take email marketing lightly. You got to find, you've really got to dig, you've got to find somebody who can handle it. Those seven days is so important. Don't Don't skimp on if they can only do five of the seven, move on, find somebody to seven other seven, at least at the very least, build a team that has the seven items mastered and I think you'll be be in great shape and companies be very, very happy with your recruiting skills.

Travis  36:30

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks again. And yeah, we'll we'll do it again sometime soon.

Ryan  36:38

All right. Thanks, Travis.